All CrossFit athletes should check out Coach Glassman's interview in the new issue of Girevik Magazine, www.girevikmagazine.com (It is an amazing interview! Also, there is a free issue of the Crossfit Journal, 'What is Fitness?'
Mel Siff Facts And Fallacies Of Fitness - DOWNLOAD (Mirror #1). Mel Siff's Forum. [email protected] This space contains a selection of unique educational materials conceived. His other book 'Facts and Fallacies of Fitness' has become very popular among fitness professionals and the general public.
Big thanks to Coach for letting me distribute it. Also, do not miss Robb Wolf's article on the Push-Kick Lunge. You will finally get a chance to put a face to the name of one of this forum's most prolific posters:-) There are a lot of other cool articles in there including one on garage gyms. Thanks, Tyler! In the wake of that interview I heard from dozens of you that, Mel Siff, PhD, took great exception to a reference in the October CrossFit Journal of his heart attack and “junk science” diet.
He responded in part with “Interestingly, I cannot recall anyone by the name of Glassman ever staying in the Siff household or studying me in the laboratory to examine my eating habits, so I am intrigued to know where he found this inside information.” He then elaborated that his diet has been, “for many years comprised of 50-60% lipids (no fried foods, no transfats, non animal fat, plenty of fish), and under 30% carbohydrate” to which he added, “I have never been a fan of high carbohydrate diets.” Dr. Coach, a very classy response and substantive as well. I too had to look up 'Procrustean':-) Let's definitely take a look at his criticisms, point by point.
It should be an interesting discussion. I think Mel is a professional critic, he rarely has the balls to actually put out his own thoughts on a topic. He is more comfortable in the world of citing peer reviewed references, so as to detach himself from any personal accountability in what he writes. Of course that's just my opinion.
I could be wrong. I really do respect his knowledge and I love his Supertraining book and I even hope to attend one of his training camps, so don't take this as a slam against Siff, but I thought his treatment of CrossFit was not objective, scientific or even correct. I just ordered the CrossFit journal!! I just finished reading your longer rebuttal in the 'Corner' and I also would like to add one crucial thing: this 'urban myth' that the Soviets were using Space Age/Cutting Edge Science to build their athletes was a load of crap.
I have had interactions with many excellent former Soviet athletes and they always laugh at what they hear coming out of my mouth. First, this gradiose idea that the Soviets had a national plan was not true. They had local coaches who had awful facilities.but, they had facilities. If you improved, life improved. Many of the lifters, according to some excellent sources, were illiterate.so, they couldn't have followed a program anyway. Many of my former Soviet friends told me that the key to the success was simply that they had a full schedule of competitions at easily accessed locations.
As an O lifter, I can vouch that this is NOT true in the USA. Next is the East German myth.
I will admit the DDR was solid in women's swimming and track.but there is no question that this was from the anabolics. There is a book called 'Fool's Gold' or something like that which outlines the massive amounts of anabolics the women were given. I was told once that if you took out kayaking, canoeing and one other smaller event, the DDR total was shocking low when put into terms of the allocation of finances towards the sports. You know, every so often I just want to scream about this supersciencesports idea. I remember going to a clinic where the speaker was raving about a Polish shot putter who shocked the world.
A day later, a buddy of mine takes me aside and told me that he and his coach lucked into taking an anabolic that was untested during this rather huge meet. He was juicing while everybody else was cleaning up. The Bulgarians were getting half their calories from fat (mostly animal fat) back in the late 1980's and the Romanians did a study about MASSIVE amounts of protein to help strength around the same time.
Yet, go back to any Western book or article written at that time and you will get the Pritikin promise for lifters and throwers: graze like a cow. I'm not so much angry as frustrated. And, by the way, you can come to my house anytime and watch me eat.
I will share with you, too. We eat a lot of meat, fish and eggs.toss in a little salad with lots of olive oil and something nice to wash it all down. Firstly, I'm sorry that I opened up this whole can of worms. I think CrossFit came out of it looking pretty good and I'm glad Coach is willing to turn the whole fiasco into something productive and educational. I'm curious what you think about this comment from Mel regarding Conjugate training. I'm not too familiar with it, but from my understanding it was a sequenced coupling of training cycles, each of which emphasizes a specific quality.
The example Mel gives in Supertraining is to enhance speed endurance and he gives the following training program for developing speed-endurance: cardio endurance strength speed speed-endurance. The emphasis shifts to a different component of the final training goal in each cycle. I'm curious how this method can be applied to all-around fitness and athleticism, like CrossFit? CF seems to integrate rather than separate the different components of fitness. So I'm curious what comparison Mel sees between conjugate method and CrossFit?. 'By the way, that CrossFit approach is not at all original or novel because it is simply a Westernised approach to what has been known for many years as general complex training in Russia and Eastern Europe.
A far more balanced approach involves what Verkhoshansky called conjugate training (see plenty of detail on this approach to 'Cross Fitness Training' in 'Supertraining.' . Mel takes issue with Greg saying that Olympic lifting develops power and speed like no other activity.
Here is Mel's response:. 'While Olympic lifting develops great power (strength-speed), it does not necessarily enhance speed 'like no other training modality' - the movements in weightlifting are by no means as fast as those in table tennis, badminton, baseball pitching or any throwing or striking action and in many cases the most competent performers in these activities have not all trained with Olympic lifts. As a weightlifter, I would prefer not to admit these facts, but it is time that this myth be abandoned that weightlifting on its own automatically develops some form of universal 'speed' that applies to all sports.
The speed developed in an athlete who uses weightlifting depends on how competently the lifting skills are used as a foundation or adjunct to the sport specific speed skills.' . Since Greg mentioned strength in the hips, shouldn't we assume that it is hip speed as well? While true that ping pong requires speed, playing ping pong will not likely improve an athletes speed in as wide a variety of conditions, such as running, jumping, tennis, football, etc.
I think Olympic lifts would be more appropriate for the development of power and speed in these cases. Coach, what do you think of Mel's criticism of your recommendation of Bob Anderson's stretching book? I'm also curious what you think of his closing statement:. Thanks, Tyler. In the exchange on Supertraining, it seemed that Mel was taking strong exception with the application of CrossFit for development of sporting prowess, prefering instead SPP - but once Tyler suggested (something to the effect of) CrossFit being perhaps the finest detailed program for General Physical Preparation (GPP), Mel agreed.
This left me with the impression that Mel really only took issue with the value of CrossFit (for example) being the ideal program to make a volleyball player a better volleyball player, but agreed that for those seeking excellent general fitness (along the lines of the CrossFit definition of fitness), it really is an excellent program. Did I read into it, or was this the impression others were left with after the discussion ended? Thanks Tyler, The outpouring of support for our program after Siff’s critique has been amazing. If this is the kind of response CrossFit will receive taking on hallowed “exercise scientists” than rather than you being sorry, Tyler, I should pay you to gunsling for our cause. Which brings me to, what is for me, the most important part of the interview and Siff’s response (or lack thereof).
In the interview I said: “We’ve repeatedly and publicly challenged the exercise science community to name a single major contribution to sport coming from their ranks – steroids don’t count!” To which he offered not one peep, and I know why! On “conjugate training”: our experience strongly suggests that training for one quality while putting others “on the back burner” then shuffling foci and expecting a superior total, final, result doesn’t work as well as keeping every parameter active and challenged. Mel’s criticisms of CrossFit seem to be to me, and to many of you who emailed me, largely that CrossFit is neither Russian nor “Supertraining.” I will not and cannot take it on faith that because the Russians did it that it has value, worked, really happened, or anything else. As for Supertraining, the number of athletes and coaches who read Supertraining (I tried) and came away with nothing, is huge. The supremacy of Russian methods, sports science, and athletic supremacy has all the legitimacy of the high carb/low fat diet. Dan John is an expert on this exact subject of Russian methodology and his tales are very illuminating.
I hope he’ll chime in here and share some of what he shared with me about the Russian approach and successes – he’s dead on. I watched up close and personally a bunch of kids and a few coaches largely centered in L.A. And with moderate resources, compared to the Soviets, snatch Gymnastics dominancy from the Soviets in one ten year push.
The Soviets were crushed. The American response was, amazingly, to formally and systematically eradicate high school and collegiate gymnastics programs nationwide and now the Russian method is once again demonstrating its superiority. Where we focus, we try, we care, we dominate and that, still, to this very moment, trumps, Siff, Verkhoshansky, “Conjugate Training”, and exercise science.
Here is the essence of the Russian system: enslave several hundred million people deny them any avenue of escape other than being participants to the enslavement or athletic performance. Build sports training centers in every little town and village and stand back. It had nothing to do with science. If you think I’m wrong, again, get Dan John going on this subject.
On speed: I was told that the toes of a gymnast on the Horizontal Bar during the last few giant swings prior to a dismount were moving during “the tap” at some ungodly speed that made a baseball pitchers fast ball look like it was standing still. I’m going to tell you that gymnasts are slow. I was referring to useful speed, and yes, Tyler, hip speed in particular and it’s transference to useful, i.e., athletic movements.
We’ve had professional basketball players, an Olympic Javelin thrower, two current Major League Baseball players, BJJ champions, NHB and MMA champions and countless others comeback amazed at their improved speed (and power) and put the credit smack dab on the O’lifts. Siff mentions baseball, here is what the pro baseball pitcher said, “Dude I’m throwing BB’s I can’t believe it – I love you.” When asked if it was the C&J and Snatch, his laugh and face made it clear there was nothing to talk about. I don’t think it was the wall-ball, or the muscle-up, I think it’s the quick lifts. The reversal of hip direction, explode in – explode out, trains for spooky speed. Hi Geoff, Welcome to the board. I understand how you'd get the impression that the discussion was about Supertraining. Siff has the same problem.
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In fact, that's his problem with everything: it's not Supretraining. No, Sir, the discussion was about CrossFit and specifically an interview I'd done for Girevik He also inquired as to how many 'Olympic winners' we'd worked with suggesting we've little experience with elite athletes. I never responded and I'm not sure what an 'Olympic winner' is, but we've worked with numerous Olympians, Olympic medalists, repeat medalists, and repeat Gold medalists. We've had athletes collectively in possession of as many as six or seven Olympic Medals in our gym at the same time, and given our small venue this represents a density of 'Olympic winners' that approaches the Olympic Podium itself at anthem time. We make a difference by finding chinks in an atheltes armour by administering a, O.K. I'll go with it, GPP program. The weakness is found through administering routines (WOD, and others identical in impact) that are engineered to broadly and aggressivly tax general athetic capacity.
Failures or weakness demonstrate the weakness and repeated exposure fixes them which enhances performance. It is my contention that the bulk of sport specific S&C for most sports is best garnered through daily training within that sport and that nearly every athtlete has some weakness that is part of general physical capacity and is hindering improved performance. If anyone still believes in their complete and total physical capacity they need to come on by and meet the boys! You will be treated kindly, respetfully, and with great defference and then handed an.-whopping that you'll never forget. We make friends that way! I'm not kidding. We are perfect in but one respect, our committement to the athelte.
Most if not all of what we do was stolen from people smarter than ourselves. It is only through open mindeness (stealing and amalgamating), persistence, and subjugating our colective egos to the needs of the community that we've won the successes and respect with which we've been blessed. Thank you, all. Coach Greg Glassman. Greg, thanks for the detailed response. I'm especially interested in what you said about gymnastics.
I just recently dove headfirst into gymnastics training, so I'll probably be picking your brain as much as possible. It's hard to find knowledgeable male gymnasts.
It's truly a shame that gymnastics programs are getting shut down everywhere you look. Mens gymnastics has practically disappeared because of some ridiculous notion that it is a girl's sport.
However, even the women's programs are disappearing at many schools. At my own school, we are trying to bring it back, but the administration thinks it is too dangerous (yet they fund boxing and skydiving clubs!). Despite all of this, American women brought home 2 gold medals and a bronze at the recent World Championships in Debrechen, Hungary.
Postell was gold on beam, Kupets on bars and Sheehan won a bronze on floor. I'm curious what you meant by gymnasts being slow? Do you mean at sprinting? I agree that gymnasts are way more flexible than yogis. Furthermore, in these positions, they are much stronger. Can you see a Yogi doing a 'glide on the side' on P-bars?
Nonetheless, as you said, Yogis do have valuable information to share and it can be a good source to draw from. I'm really working hard on my flexibility right now. It takes a serious warm-up and some pre-stretching before I can even get my legs to from a 90. angle in the seated straddle. This could be an impediment in press to handstands, so I'm attacking the problem. I think part of the reason gymnasts get their flexibility is that it is just part of that sub-culture to be flexible. When you are around people all day that are extremely flexible, it becomes normal and less scary.
I would think this might have a psychological effect of disinhibiting your body's natural reaction to prevent such extreme positions. Of course the simpler explanation might just be that, gymnasts use their flexibility on a daily basis and maintain it from an early age. I also completely agree with you that GPP and sports practice is enough for any athlete. I have never seen Mel Siff design a program for a specific type of athlete. So until he puts something out there for the rest of the world to critique, we will not even know what a sports specific program even looks like. My guess is that it would incorporate a lot of the same functional movements that are present in CrossFit.
The only examples I have ever seen of sports specific training being effective is in cases where a specific level of hypertrophy is desired, such as a lineman. However, there was nothing scientific about it, just a common sense look at the needs of an athlete and a program to address it (and food!). Coaches, teachers and parents have been doing this long before there was such a thing as a sports scientist. Thanks for your response, it was very interesting! For the next few days, I think I might add random posts about the topic.but, I am just a touch too busy for a formal review of some of this discussion. First point: whenever someone tells you that they 'coached' an American athlete to the Olympics, you must stop and think.
Did a five minute telephone call constitute 'coaching' or does the person mean the full Alpha to Omega process of recruitment, grooming, tapering, peaking and teaching over a two to three decade relationship fullfil itself in an Olympic dream? These are not the same thing! Anyone who tells you they 'coached' 400 Olympians means that they talked or watched or BSed a superstar at some time of the process.
There is literally not enough time in one life to 'coach 400 Olympians.' Everyone misses this point: Just because you wrote a book or held a clinic does NOT mean you 'coached' the athletes for their career. No question Bondarchuk coached Yuri Sedyck. He almost killed a young Yuri.a soccer player.and Yuri saw the hammer and started to compete. At Montreal, Bondarchuk got the bronze and his pupil, the Gold.
That is coaching an Olympian! From seed to fruit, if you will. Now, I had a mom ask me to teach his son the 'basics' of lifting in the fifth grade. Three years later, he asked about the discus. Four years later, he was the National Leader in the High School Discus (Paul Northway).
Yet, I saw a flyer for a discus clinic a year later where a local guy advertised that he had 'coached Paul Northway.' Everyone in the 'know' laughed their asses off. We here at this forum need to be in the 'know.' If you think about a guy like Joe Montana, the football player, certainly you can point to Bill Walsh. But, didn't Joe graduate and play for a rather famous college program, Notre Dame?
Even in a superstar's case.it ain't one coach. I have bad news for people like myself.coaches. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken poop! My point, and I have one, is that anytime you are challenged with the question: 'How many Olympians have you coached?' You can laugh at the person asking the question.
Go to the single finest High School Football program in your area. Look at the record over the past five years.maybe 54 wins and no losses. Five state championships. Ignore all that! Look the head coach in the eye and say: 'How many guys in the NFL from your school?' If he says 'none,' tell him point blank: 'You don't know nothing then!' This, my friends, is idiocy.oh, and a real chance to get your.
kicked. How many or how few Olympians 'you have coached' is not the proof of a solid program!!! Ah, 'Exercise Science!' Go to ANY university in the USA and walk the halls of the P.E.
Department or Exercise Science and look around. It is a rare school that will welcome an athlete.
In fact, usually, it is the last thing they want. When I was at Utah State, I found a prof who had written in an article that he was the assistant coach to Ralph Maughan during the 'glory years' of Aggie throwing. He was a Phys Ed prof who had written dozens of booklets on teaching various sports. Of course, Ralph Maughan was my coach, but Coach Maughan was 'stingy' with his old stuff.files, films, workouts.so I asked to talk to this guy. At best, he had the level of information of our Team Manager. EVERYthing he wrote was stolen or, at best, oblique to real training.
Oh, I have no point here. Basically, if you want sports information, go to the track or the weightroom. When I was at the United State Olympic Training Center in both 1990 and 1991, I was videoed and biomechanically analyzed.under great expense I was told. I asked one guy how to improve my technique.
Let me quote his answer: 'Try a cycle of anabolics and see if that helps.' The next summer, I started working with John Powell and Brian Oldfield. AFter one throw, they showed me that my right foot didn't turn in the middle and my head was shooting off the axis of that right foot.making me lose a LOT of feet and fouling all the time.
Take your pick, my friends. If someone's advice is to take drugs (What was it that Nancy Reagan said?), we call them a 'pusher' back home.
If someone watches you for a minute and fixes your technique. You have a Coach.